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bdk
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Joined: 24 Mar 2008
Posts: 1611
Location: Hell

Looking for resource for possible identity fraud Tax/IRS
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:39 am Reply with quoteBack to top

There is a situation with a friend of mine who cannot think straight because of marriage breaking up. The wife was under the assumption for a period of time they were living off of her husbands wealth. Turns out they are but he like most in his position had investment income which he had to report as anyone would do. Problem is the husband was filing joint returns for approx 10 years and signing his wifes name on the return without her knowledge, permission, no power of attorney etc.

She's not stupid in her mind they have plenty of money he's retired yada yada so not fling a return never crossed her mind; nobody is working why would they?!

IMO his intention was to hide money, assets etc and keep the wife in the dark. This is actually one of the major problems with the relationship there has never really been a true level of trust... snowballs into a breakup.

I think this is a simple case of identity fraud but dont think there was any criminal activity with regards to the tax returns. IRS forms are federal documents are they not? Signing ones name without their permission is identity fraud. Does the wife have any recourse? I dont know where to go to get answers.

The tax code Ive seen say they go back 3-6yrs in most cases (refund/tax liability where spouse who has one put over on them has options) Ive seen excerpts saying statute of limitations doesnt apply... case by case. This is different, because not talking about whether or not she is entitled to refund (most info I find relates to this NOT the act of signing ones name)

my role here is to help guide my friend ID if there may be something to use as a bargaining chip.

Any suggestions where I can go to get answers?

_________________
http://howlibertydied.blogspot.com/

Remember remember the fifth of November. Gunpowder, treason and plot. I see no reason why gunpowder, treason
Should ever be forgot...
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achtung
Nitroglycerin


Joined: 03 Jun 2010
Posts: 716
Location: Germany

Re: Looking for resource for possible identity fraud Tax/IRS
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:50 am Reply with quoteBack to top

bdk wrote:
There is a situation with a friend of mine who cannot think straight because of marriage breaking up. The wife was under the assumption for a period of time they were living off of her husbands wealth. Turns out they are but he like most in his position had investment income which he had to report as anyone would do. Problem is the husband was filing joint returns for approx 10 years and signing his wifes name on the return without her knowledge, permission, no power of attorney etc.

She's not stupid in her mind they have plenty of money he's retired yada yada so not fling a return never crossed her mind; nobody is working why would they?!

IMO his intention was to hide money, assets etc and keep the wife in the dark. This is actually one of the major problems with the relationship there has never really been a true level of trust... snowballs into a breakup.

I think this is a simple case of identity fraud but dont think there was any criminal activity with regards to the tax returns. IRS forms are federal documents are they not? Signing ones name without their permission is identity fraud. Does the wife have any recourse? I dont know where to go to get answers.

The tax code Ive seen say they go back 3-6yrs in most cases (refund/tax liability where spouse who has one put over on them has options) Ive seen excerpts saying statute of limitations doesnt apply... case by case. This is different, because not talking about whether or not she is entitled to refund (most info I find relates to this NOT the act of signing ones name)

my role here is to help guide my friend ID if there may be something to use as a bargaining chip.

Any suggestions where I can go to get answers?


http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8857.pdf

_________________
“Debt and deficits are not inventions of ideology. They are facts of arithmetic.”

– Paul Martin
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bdk
Wrecking crew


Joined: 24 Mar 2008
Posts: 1611
Location: Hell

Re: Looking for resource for possible identity fraud Tax/IRS
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:16 am Reply with quoteBack to top

achtung wrote:
bdk wrote:
There is a situation with a friend of mine who cannot think straight because of marriage breaking up. The wife was under the assumption for a period of time they were living off of her husbands wealth. Turns out they are but he like most in his position had investment income which he had to report as anyone would do. Problem is the husband was filing joint returns for approx 10 years and signing his wifes name on the return without her knowledge, permission, no power of attorney etc.

She's not stupid in her mind they have plenty of money he's retired yada yada so not fling a return never crossed her mind; nobody is working why would they?!

IMO his intention was to hide money, assets etc and keep the wife in the dark. This is actually one of the major problems with the relationship there has never really been a true level of trust... snowballs into a breakup.

I think this is a simple case of identity fraud but dont think there was any criminal activity with regards to the tax returns. IRS forms are federal documents are they not? Signing ones name without their permission is identity fraud. Does the wife have any recourse? I dont know where to go to get answers.

The tax code Ive seen say they go back 3-6yrs in most cases (refund/tax liability where spouse who has one put over on them has options) Ive seen excerpts saying statute of limitations doesnt apply... case by case. This is different, because not talking about whether or not she is entitled to refund (most info I find relates to this NOT the act of signing ones name)

my role here is to help guide my friend ID if there may be something to use as a bargaining chip.

Any suggestions where I can go to get answers?


http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8857.pdf


Thanks Im aware of that and its not the issue really! We want to know if this act of identity fraud is punishable or does the IRS not care as long as they get the return/tax due. From what Im finding they dont care!!!

Surely signing someones name without their consent married or not is punishable?!

_________________
http://howlibertydied.blogspot.com/

Remember remember the fifth of November. Gunpowder, treason and plot. I see no reason why gunpowder, treason
Should ever be forgot...
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achtung
Nitroglycerin


Joined: 03 Jun 2010
Posts: 716
Location: Germany

Re: Looking for resource for possible identity fraud Tax/IRS
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:24 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

The quick answer is no. There is no penalty. What it is generally viewed as, is that; because the tax returns were filed for a series of consecutive years, there becomes a tacit pattern of consent.

This so called pattern of consent is backed by court cases.

Section 6013(d)(3) sets forth that the liability for filing a joint return is joint and several. Section 1.6013-1(a)(2), Income Tax Regs., establishes that, generally, a joint return must be signed by both spouses. However, the determination of whether a return is jointly filed or not depends on the intention of the spouses and not the presence or absence of their signatures. The question of a spouse's intention is a question of fact to be determined from all the circumstances. Estate of Campbell v. Commissioner [Dec. 30,715], 56 T.C. 1, 12 (1971).

_________________
“Debt and deficits are not inventions of ideology. They are facts of arithmetic.”

– Paul Martin
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bdk
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Joined: 24 Mar 2008
Posts: 1611
Location: Hell

Re: Looking for resource for possible identity fraud Tax/IRS
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 2:05 am Reply with quoteBack to top

OK!

Now I have another thing to run by since you seem to be up to speed on tax code/ law...

If I sell my business to another larger business for cash and/or stock in the larger corp is the stock considered income? $1mil cash $1mil in stock , is the $1mil stock viewed as income since it was an instrument of payment for my business?

_________________
http://howlibertydied.blogspot.com/

Remember remember the fifth of November. Gunpowder, treason and plot. I see no reason why gunpowder, treason
Should ever be forgot...
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achtung
Nitroglycerin


Joined: 03 Jun 2010
Posts: 716
Location: Germany

Re: Looking for resource for possible identity fraud Tax/IRS
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:14 am Reply with quoteBack to top

bdk wrote:
OK!

Now I have another thing to run by since you seem to be up to speed on tax code/ law...

If I sell my business to another larger business for cash and/or stock in the larger corp is the stock considered income? $1mil cash $1mil in stock , is the $1mil stock viewed as income since it was an instrument of payment for my business?


Any time you sell a business, there are taxable gains No matter what was received as value.


If you take the stock and hold it, there will (usually) be no immediate tax. The tax comes into play if/when you sell the stock.

_________________
“Debt and deficits are not inventions of ideology. They are facts of arithmetic.”

– Paul Martin
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bdk
Wrecking crew


Joined: 24 Mar 2008
Posts: 1611
Location: Hell

Re: Looking for resource for possible identity fraud Tax/IRS
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:25 am Reply with quoteBack to top

achtung wrote:
bdk wrote:
OK!

Now I have another thing to run by since you seem to be up to speed on tax code/ law...

If I sell my business to another larger business for cash and/or stock in the larger corp is the stock considered income? $1mil cash $1mil in stock , is the $1mil stock viewed as income since it was an instrument of payment for my business?


Any time you sell a business, there are taxable gains No matter what was received as value.


If you take the stock and hold it, there will (usually) be no immediate tax. The tax comes into play if/when you sell the stock.



Ok but if one is "paid" in stock is it not considered income? Im not so much concerned with it being taxed or not. I want to know definitively if it is considered income?

_________________
http://howlibertydied.blogspot.com/

Remember remember the fifth of November. Gunpowder, treason and plot. I see no reason why gunpowder, treason
Should ever be forgot...
View user's profileSend private messageVisit poster's website
achtung
Nitroglycerin


Joined: 03 Jun 2010
Posts: 716
Location: Germany

Re: Looking for resource for possible identity fraud Tax/IRS
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 12:37 am Reply with quoteBack to top

bdk wrote:
achtung wrote:
bdk wrote:
OK!

Now I have another thing to run by since you seem to be up to speed on tax code/ law...

If I sell my business to another larger business for cash and/or stock in the larger corp is the stock considered income? $1mil cash $1mil in stock , is the $1mil stock viewed as income since it was an instrument of payment for my business?


Any time you sell a business, there are taxable gains No matter what was received as value.


If you take the stock and hold it, there will (usually) be no immediate tax. The tax comes into play if/when you sell the stock.



Ok but if one is "paid" in stock is it not considered income? Im not so much concerned with it being taxed or not. I want to know definitively if it is considered income?


Yes, it is income. It often gets confused, because it is taxed as "capital gains" yet it always counts as income.

Are you sure you do not have a cost basis to deduct from the proceeds? That can offset a huge portion of what you have to pay upfront

_________________
“Debt and deficits are not inventions of ideology. They are facts of arithmetic.”

– Paul Martin
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bdk
Wrecking crew


Joined: 24 Mar 2008
Posts: 1611
Location: Hell

Re: Looking for resource for possible identity fraud Tax/IRS
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:17 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

achtung wrote:
bdk wrote:
achtung wrote:
bdk wrote:
OK!

Now I have another thing to run by since you seem to be up to speed on tax code/ law...

If I sell my business to another larger business for cash and/or stock in the larger corp is the stock considered income? $1mil cash $1mil in stock , is the $1mil stock viewed as income since it was an instrument of payment for my business?


Any time you sell a business, there are taxable gains No matter what was received as value.


If you take the stock and hold it, there will (usually) be no immediate tax. The tax comes into play if/when you sell the stock.



Ok but if one is "paid" in stock is it not considered income? Im not so much concerned with it being taxed or not. I want to know definitively if it is considered income?


Yes, it is income. It often gets confused, because it is taxed as "capital gains" yet it always counts as income.

Are you sure you do not have a cost basis to deduct from the proceeds? That can offset a huge portion of what you have to pay upfront


I don't know this is actually for a court case that IMO this alleged income has been completely overlooked! Is there any civil/IRS code you can cite to back this up? I want to hand it to atty and tell them "hey you missed this clowns income staring you in the face!"

_________________
http://howlibertydied.blogspot.com/

Remember remember the fifth of November. Gunpowder, treason and plot. I see no reason why gunpowder, treason
Should ever be forgot...
View user's profileSend private messageVisit poster's website
achtung
Nitroglycerin


Joined: 03 Jun 2010
Posts: 716
Location: Germany

Re: Looking for resource for possible identity fraud Tax/IRS
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:33 am Reply with quoteBack to top

bdk wrote:
achtung wrote:
bdk wrote:
achtung wrote:
bdk wrote:
OK!

Now I have another thing to run by since you seem to be up to speed on tax code/ law...

If I sell my business to another larger business for cash and/or stock in the larger corp is the stock considered income? $1mil cash $1mil in stock , is the $1mil stock viewed as income since it was an instrument of payment for my business?


Any time you sell a business, there are taxable gains No matter what was received as value.


If you take the stock and hold it, there will (usually) be no immediate tax. The tax comes into play if/when you sell the stock.



Ok but if one is "paid" in stock is it not considered income? Im not so much concerned with it being taxed or not. I want to know definitively if it is considered income?


Yes, it is income. It often gets confused, because it is taxed as "capital gains" yet it always counts as income.

Are you sure you do not have a cost basis to deduct from the proceeds? That can offset a huge portion of what you have to pay upfront


I don't know this is actually for a court case that IMO this alleged income has been completely overlooked! Is there any civil/IRS code you can cite to back this up? I want to hand it to atty and tell them "hey you missed this clowns income staring you in the face!"


All of this is covered in IRS section 453. Section A deals with the tax deferral strategies.

You would have to have the sales contract for the business to figure out what the deferral strategy was, in order to find the future tax liability of your friend.

_________________
“Debt and deficits are not inventions of ideology. They are facts of arithmetic.”

– Paul Martin
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